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darknietzsche
02-21-2013, 04:53 PM
Playoffs Week 1 Sunday February 24th 2013, 2PM EST/7PM GMT
http://images.challonge.com/SL7Playoffs.png
Map pool: Winners 1 and 2 Losers 1 and 2
Winners:
Round 1: planepark, snow, core, cross, grotto
Round 2: Funnelpark, cave, darkwar, ice, mayhem2
Semis: Ice, Core, grotto, asteroids, lost city, darkwar, maze (bo5)

Losers1: Funnelpark, cave, lost city, darkwar, labyrinth
Losers2: ice, core, snow, planepark, maze
4th place match: asteroids, planepark, maze, lost city, darkwar
3rd place match: grotto, snow, cross, labyrinth, core, maze, funnelpark (bo5)

Servers: Top Seed chooses server and begins veto BO3 in Rounds 1 and 2, Bo5 in semis of Winners and Finals of Losers, Finals are BO7.
****Note: Servers chosen must be stable and is the responsibility of the server owner to ensure server stability. Also note, a ladder admin must be present to use the ladder servers if not available you must choose a different server.
Format: Bo3

All the other rules in the rules thread.
We are doing normal SL, so if you are confused about the rules check:
http://altitudegame.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7784

mjolnir416
02-21-2013, 09:02 PM
US bracket vs Euro bracket.

soccernamlak
02-22-2013, 02:20 AM
US bracket vs Euro bracket.

Winner takes ladder IMO.

mjolnir416
02-22-2013, 05:30 AM
At least there will be no server qq till the semis.

JWhatever
02-22-2013, 10:07 AM
How does the server rule apply for bo5 and bo7? First 3 and 4 games played in top seeds server?

Also, can you switch servers for just the last game or so or do you have to play your server switch card as soon as you get it?

-J

darknietzsche
02-22-2013, 01:25 PM
I will think about how to do bo5 since they wont be played this week. And I am not sure what your second question is asking, you have to play the first two games in the top seeds choice. Then at the third game it is totally dependent upon the other team to ask for a switch of servers.

My first impression would be to do only one server switch though, but I can discuss with others if they think it would be too time consuming to do others.

JWhatever
02-22-2013, 02:37 PM
In case of bo5, (assuming that the server rule goes like top seed picks server for first 3 games and after that bottom seed can choose the server) can you play the first 4 games on the original server and then change to the bottom seeds server pick for the last game or do you have to switch servers after the 3 games if you are to switch servers?

That didn't make any sense now did it?

-J

darknietzsche
02-22-2013, 02:52 PM
Oh I am sorry, I get it! Yeah you can change servers at anytime after the initial point of a server switch to be allowed. So you may go the first 4 games in a single server then switch if it was a bo5.

sunshineduck
02-22-2013, 04:28 PM
personally i feel like league parity is more important than an extra 2 minutes balln would waste in between matches anyway

blln4lyf
02-22-2013, 07:17 PM
Oh I am sorry, I get it! Yeah you can change servers at anytime after the initial point of a server switch to be allowed. So you may go the first 4 games in a single server then switch if it was a bo5.

Wouldn't it be 3 then 2? Not 4 and 1? Or an I confusing what you said. Also qq ssd

darknietzsche
02-22-2013, 08:17 PM
Sorry, J asked if he could after playing the first three games in server 1 continue playing in server 1 for game 4 then switch to server 2 for game 5 rather than having to switch servers for game 4 to make sure game 5 is also played in a second server

Aki1024
02-22-2013, 09:03 PM
Lower seed must win at least one before a sweep style
BO3: (2 Home, 1 Away, 1 switch) 1-1 -> switch for final game.
BO5: (3 Home, 2 Away, 1 switch) 2-1 -> switch for final games.
BO7: (4 Home, 3 Away, 1 switch) 3-1 -> switch for final games.

Switch every two games:
BO3: (2 Home, 1 Away, 1 switch) 1-1 -> Switch for final game.
BO5: (3 Home, 2 Away, 2 switch) 0-2, 1-1, 2-0 -> Switch 0-3, 1-3, 3-1, 3-0, 3-1 gg or 2-2 Switch for final game -> 3-2 or 2-3
BO7: (4 Home, 3 Away, 3 switch) Same as BO5, but 2-2 Switch -> 4-2, 2-4 gg or 3-3 Switch -> 4-3

I prefer the Lower seed must win at least one game due to fewer switches. The max games played on which server remains the same with fewer switches. Note that my team's seed also makes me biased. One argument would be moral. Its easier to win on a home server down by two games (2-0 scenario) then it is to win on a home server down all the games minus 1 (3-1). This moral/advantage is a fundamental element of double elimination tournaments. The undefeated team has fewer games and an easier path to the end.

mjolnir416
02-23-2013, 06:50 AM
Also, can you switch servers for just the last game or so or do you have to play your server switch card as soon as you get it?

-J

Why would you want to wait? I'm down for just the 1 switch. Less of a hassle.

JWhatever
02-23-2013, 12:14 PM
Why would you want to wait?

Using our team as example (we have 2 US players, fart and redrum).

We're playing a bo5 (or bo7), we're playing on US server and we then get the option to switch servers. If we're doing fine on the US server then there is no need to switch servers. Would we loose our US players after the 3rd / 4th match, then we'd most likely want to go to EU server.

So, if we have the option (which we have) to switch servers after the initial point of server switch, then we wouldn't be taxed so hard on our decision to not switch earlier.

I'm down for just the 1 switch. Less of a hassle.

Still just 1 switch, question is not how many but when.


Btw, what rounds are we playing? A - F and J - M?

-J

darknietzsche
02-24-2013, 02:20 AM
Yes J to the question about what rounds are playing this week.

Xorg
02-24-2013, 09:08 PM
SMILE 0-2 BBQ
SMILE 2-0 arr
SMILE 0-2 t3c

ggs everyone. It was our best season so far x]

JWhatever
02-24-2013, 09:18 PM
Vlix 2-0 arr
Vlix 0-2 BBQ
Vlix 2-0 &&

-J

TwistedCookie
02-24-2013, 09:19 PM
[BBQ] > Smile (2-0)
[BBQ] > Vlix (2-0)

shrode
02-27-2013, 09:12 AM
So just to clarify, the finals could be 2 bo7s? dang that's a lot of potential maps :o

Fartface
02-27-2013, 12:09 PM
So just to clarify, the finals could be 2 bo7s? dang that's a lot of potential maps :o

Compared to what APL made us do, that ain't nothin!

soccernamlak
02-27-2013, 08:25 PM
So just to clarify, the finals could be 2 bo7s? dang that's a lot of potential maps :o

Round 1: Maimer, Pegs, Bowser_Castle, Mario_World, Pipedream_Light, Bubbles, Decimal

Round 2: Eclipse, Volcano, Locomotion, Labyrinth_Original, Swarm, Station_Alpha, Doodle

Backup Maps: Pinball_Arena, Risk, Sideshow, Circuitry, Electropark, Tetris, Star


I don't see a problem with map selection :confused:

drunkguava
02-27-2013, 09:21 PM
don't forget original mayhem and football, soccer

blln4lyf
02-27-2013, 09:57 PM
don't forget original mayhem and football, soccer

Original Mayhem best map ever. BRING IT BACK.

darknietzsche
03-02-2013, 10:24 PM
Updated map pool:

Remember semis and 3rd place match are bo5.

Fartface
03-03-2013, 03:33 AM
Updated map pool:

Remember semis and 3rd place match is bo5.

Are losers semis bo3 or bo5? (bo5 would be preferable :])

darknietzsche
03-03-2013, 03:41 AM
If you guys agree bo5 before game one then that is fine, otherwise it is bo3, but I am not adding two more maps so if you would agree to bo5 then you might have to play the given 5 maps for that map pool.

TwistedCookie
03-03-2013, 05:12 PM
so whats the drill in bo5 (vetos and server)

darknietzsche
03-03-2013, 05:18 PM
Same thing as previous. Top seed chooses the server there will be only one server switch after game 3 unless teams agree to do it some other way.

Vetos go 112221 for 7 map:

If bo5 is played for 4th place match it will use the standard: 1221 style

JWhatever
03-03-2013, 07:52 PM
Vlix 2-0 t3c
Vlix 3-2 Ball

-J

TwistedCookie
03-03-2013, 08:44 PM
[BBQ] > {ball} (3-0)

Threevenge
03-03-2013, 11:42 PM
Top seed chooses the server

Not sure if anybody brought this to your attention but top seed isn't clearly defined in the rules for play-offs. Is it top seed based on season rankings or whoever has top bracket? Because we (t3c) had understood it as season seeding while ball read it as top bracket. Nobody was trying to screw each other over, it just isn't defined well enough and was open to interpretation.

darknietzsche
03-03-2013, 11:46 PM
It has always been the top numerical seed getting the first choice. The only time when I believe it should be the other way around is in the finals where the winner of the winners bracket should have first choice over losers bracket despite the seeding.

blln4lyf
03-04-2013, 12:09 AM
It has always been the top numerical seed getting the first choice. The only time when I believe it should be the other way around is in the finals where the winner of the winners bracket should have first choice over losers bracket despite the seeding.

Good to note, the switch in the finals is what made me think the higher bracket was the higher seed

shrode
03-04-2013, 12:09 AM
It has always been the top numerical seed getting the first choice. The only time when I believe it should be the other way around is in the finals where the winner of the winners bracket should have first choice over losers bracket despite the seeding.

Using the same logic, the team coming from the winners bracket should have had the choice over the lower team in match O.

blln4lyf
03-04-2013, 02:58 AM
Using the same logic, the team coming from the winners bracket should have had the choice over the lower team in match O.

^ this chars. gg's tho vlix

darknietzsche
03-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Yes, while my logic would support that in a certain way. The way I actually view it is that everyone in the winners brackets are equal, so to distinguish between them we seed them based on the regular season. When a team goes to the losers bracket, I think of them being lower then the winner's bracket. However, I don't distinguish when a team enters the losers brackets draw, so again we should seperate teams by how they accomplished the regular season. I see the finals as a third bracket entity where the winner of winners bracket earns their right as the host and the winner of the losers bracket wins the right as the visitor. If a second match is to be played in the finals I feel that teams are again equal footing bringing back the seeded rule.

These are just my impressions on how things should operate, I would be happy to discuss and possibly change how seedings are determined if people think that it is really necessary.

shrode
03-04-2013, 06:24 PM
I feel like you are wrong DN, and I would even go as far to say that in the above bracket, the team that is on top of every matchup should have received server choice. Seeding determines your place in the bracket. That is it. This gives the 1 seed server choice through the whole tourney if they keep winning. As soon as ball upset tc3, ball should have had map choice because we knocked off the one seed.

This "team on top has server choice" rule works throughout the whole bracket. Even after the winners bracket team loses in the championship round one, they are intentionally put on top in the next round because the team that made it further in the winners bracket should have the server choice.

darknietzsche
03-04-2013, 07:24 PM
I don't think I am wrong, since the way I described is how it has always been. Is it the best way to do things, who knows? I feel the way you described also has its flaws like saying how ball the 4th seed overall should have had server choice over bbq is pretty crazy imo. By doing it your way, you put even less importance on the regular season, say the 8 seed beats 1 seed in match 1 they automatically get best of the playoffs after 1 match. What happens to the 10 matches in the regular season that made the 8 seed the 8 seed. I don't think 1 match should supercede all of the regular seasons work.

Also your situation does not work in the case of losers brackets. Look at vlix vs t3c, by your way, vlix would get server choice despite t3c and vlix entering the losers bracket at the same time. I would expect t3c to then get the first choice not vlix.

Aki1024
03-04-2013, 08:15 PM
Styles of tournaments for home team advantage that I have heard of:
1) Who has played better in this tournament (ie Longest time before first loss)
2) Who played better before this tournament
3) Who has played the fewest home games
4) Season W-L record, including games played in this tourny. W-L order ignored.
5) Swiss points (The player who has beat opponents who have done better in this tourney then the opponent's opponents)

I agree with style 1, as does Challonge. DN agrees with style 2 except for the Final's game where he agrees with style 1. I have seen style 3 be used in HS level play.

Style 1 believes seeds leading into the tournament gives you better position to win should you continue to play well. It punishes swiftly for losing, which goes along with flavor of DE brackets. It rewards lower seeds who excel beyond expectation.

Style 2 believes the advantage should belong with the seeds, regardless of how poorly an upper seed plays. It hates underdogs to the degree of pushing them down repeatedly.

Style 3 believes in the fairness of spectators to witness games played by their team.

Style 4 believes advantage to the better playing team since records began.

Style 5 believes in using computers to solve problems.

Normally in brackets, being at home gives you less time to travel to the competition and gives you a favorable crowd. Being the away team doesn't hinder your ability to play outside of moral.

Games L+M flop sides so that a team can't play against the same team the played in the first round. In game N, both teams lost at the same time, but Seed 3 lost to better seed, and Seed 1 lost to a worse seed.

E1 over 4, F2 over 3, L3 over 5, M4 over 7 -> N is 3 vs 4, 3 gets choice over 4, 4 beat a -3 team, and 3 beat a -2 team. 3 had the harder game and won.
E4 over 1, F2 over 3, L3 over 5, M1 over 7 -> N is 3 vs 1, 3 gets choice over 4, 3 beat a -2 team, 1 beat a -6 team. 3 had the harder game and won.
Extra: E4 over 1, F2 over 3, G4 vs 2, 4 gets choice over 2 because 4 beat a +3 opponent, and 2 beat a -1 opponent. 4 had the harder game and won.
The more I look at this, the more I agree with Challonge.

I'm sure someone on <vlix> will call me out on this that in N I said top seed gets server choice. I relayed what DN said as he is tourney organizer. From the sounds of it, he is running with precedence of SL/APL. Note that I disagree with changing styles mid tourny. Any arguments I'm making are for future tournament consideration.

I'm curious if Style 1 is based on Style 5 played out in all combinations and picks S5's most common answer to a match. Bracket Theory!


Something I just noticed was Game G, 4 vs 2. Was this played top team got home, or top seed got home?

Fartface
03-04-2013, 11:55 PM
I'm sure someone on <vlix> will call me out on this that in N I said top seed gets server choice. I relayed what DN said as he is tourney organizer. From the sounds of it, he is running with precedence of SL/APL. Note that I disagree with changing styles mid tourny. Any arguments I'm making are for future tournament consideration.

We at vlix are fine with the way it was handled in the end. I completely understand {ball}'s concern and personally I had no idea how the server was supposed to be chosen. We just wanted to make absolute sure that we weren't forced to give up the server choice twice in a row, because no matter whether the tourney is style 1 or style 2, we would have gotten the server choice once.

Personally I favor DN's preference as well; I think it's good to reward a season of hard work and time commitment rather than just the postseason, which could be affected by something as trivial as player turnout on one day.

sunshineduck
03-05-2013, 04:35 AM
As soon as ball upset tc3, ball should have had map choice because we knocked off the one seed.

this is not how it works in any playoff system of any sport i am aware of, and has no historical precedence in apl/sl :o

Clapon
03-05-2013, 09:46 AM
Yeah top seed should have "home field" unless the higher seed is coming from the loser bracket playing someone from the winners bracket, ie. the finals

Threevenge
03-05-2013, 10:01 PM
As soon as ball upset tc3, ball should have had map choice because we knocked off the one seed.

Besides what SSD said this approach gives an unbalanced advantage to being fourth place, as with your approach a fourth seed that upsets a first seed will have server choice when they face the 2nd seed in the winners bracket finals. I could picture teams forfeiting matches to move from 2nd or 3rd to 4th during regular season for that advantage.

Moon
03-07-2013, 10:10 AM
If anyone's interested I recorded the last weeks BBQ vs Ball and Vlix vs Ball matches, the last few of which I will finish uploading today:
https://www.youtube.com/user/F1r01/videos?view=0

TwistedCookie
03-07-2013, 10:38 AM
If anyone's interested I recorded the last weeks BBQ vs Ball and Vlix vs Ball matches, the last few of which I will finish uploading today:
https://www.youtube.com/user/F1r01/videos?view=0

Thanks man,thats awsome.
You could do that on finals too ? we're actually looking for a cameraman so 3v could cast the finals with it :)

Aki1024
03-07-2013, 11:25 AM
Besides what SSD said this approach gives an unbalanced advantage to being fourth place, as with your approach a fourth seed that upsets a first seed will have server choice when they face the 2nd seed in the winners bracket finals.
Style 1 believes seeds leading into the tournament gives you better position to win should you continue to play well. It punishes swiftly for losing, which goes along with flavor of DE brackets. It rewards lower seeds who excel beyond expectation.

Style 2 believes the advantage should belong with the seeds, regardless of how poorly an upper seed plays. It hates underdogs to the degree of pushing them down repeatedly.

E4 over 1, F2 over 3, G4 vs 2, 4 gets choice over 2 because 4 beat a +3 opponent, and 2 beat a -1 opponent. 4 had the harder game and won.
3v: You agree with style 2 then. The example given states from Style 1's POV why 4 gets home server. I disagree that a winning fourth seed has an unbalanced advantage vs the second seed in the finals. They had a more difficult road to get to where they are.

evilarsenal
03-08-2013, 12:36 AM
a satellite uk server would fix everything

Aki1024
03-08-2013, 03:37 AM
A hosted LAN SL would fix everything.

Threevenge
03-08-2013, 03:41 AM
3v: You agree with style 2 then. The example given states from Style 1's POV why 4 gets home server. I disagree that a winning fourth seed has an unbalanced advantage vs the second seed in the finals. They had a more difficult road to get to where they are.

My comparison here is between third and fourth place. In a tournament where if you beat the top seed you get server choice, it would actually be better to finish 4th instead of 3rd.

Here's a hypothetical situation: I'm playing on a team near the end of the season, currently in third. If I win I stay in third, if I lose I end up fourth. If I'm third and win my way to the winners finals, I don't have server choice. If I'm fourth and beat the 1st seed, I now have server choice the rest of the tournament. Honestly, even if I could place 2nd I'd want 4th! Hell, if an 8th place team beats a 1st place team and gets that server advantage the rest of the tournament, think of how ridiculous that would be. This is a team that's going to have an advantage for the rest of the tournament over teams who earned their spot by playing well for weeks.

I do not want to see a tournament that actually encourages teams to lose. I also don't see how this style hates underdogs...because it rewards teams that played well?

The only reward you get for a good regular season (outside of CP for the first place team) is your seed. It needs to matter when play-offs come.

evilarsenal
03-08-2013, 06:06 AM
think about the NFL... 1st place is getting that automatic advantage of home, and it would motivate people more to do a lot better in the season... the reasoning is good for 4th getting the server choice for beating the 1st, however i'd prefer if everyone just used the same server too :| euro makes everyone lag and it skews the playoffs way too hard.

Moon
03-08-2013, 11:56 AM
Thanks man,thats awsome.
You could do that on finals too ? we're actually looking for a cameraman so 3v could cast the finals with it :)

I believe I'll be having a scrim against JAM at 7pm GMT, so I don't think that I'll be able to do it. Though Braz was talking about a possible hold back.. but who knows.. It's better if you had someone else do it.

darknietzsche
03-08-2013, 01:29 PM
I pretty much agree with three...the regular seasons "worth" is already incredibly diminished by putting 75%-100% of the teams into the post season. By allowing lower seeds to take the playoff advantage away, after upsetting one team, diminishes the regular season even more. I am also not aware of a single tournament that is handled as you suggested in case 1 aki, could you provide some historical reference because I would be more willing to switch to something that has proven itself to work in the past.

Fartface
03-09-2013, 12:20 PM
Just realized daylight savings 1 hour forward happens tonight. Should finals be played at 3est/7gmt or 2est/6gmt? I know vlix and BBQ are heavily euro teams (me, redrum, nade, kuja are the only Americans I can think of) so it would probably work more easily to keep it at 7gmt for the euros and have us come at 3est

TwistedCookie
03-09-2013, 12:37 PM
Just realized daylight savings 1 hour forward happens tonight. Should finals be played at 3est/7gmt or 2est/6gmt? I know vlix and BBQ are heavily euro teams (me, redrum, nade, kuja are the only Americans I can think of) so it would probably work more easily to keep it at 7gmt for the euros and have us come at 3est

Good you noticed that man.
As you said,I think we should keep the 7pm gmt and the americans will come at 3pm est.

darknietzsche
03-09-2013, 01:54 PM
Normally it would be held at 2 est/6 gmt, but if both teams agree and plan to show up at 3EST/ 7GMT, that is perfectly alright.

TwistedCookie
03-09-2013, 02:15 PM
Normally it would be held at 2 est/6 gmt, but if both teams agree and plan to show up at 3EST/ 7GMT, that is perfectly alright.

Well,its easier for both teams imo,pretty hard to let everybody know about the new times instead of just telling the US players (who are a minority in both teams).

Butts
03-09-2013, 02:22 PM
I forgot about daylight savings. Thanks Fart. Probably better for the US players anyways. Cause I normally sleep in late on the weekends.

leggomyeggo
03-09-2013, 02:54 PM
i forgot about daylight savings. Thanks fart. Probably better for the us players anyways. Cause i normally sleep in late on the weekends.

ಠ_ಠ .

Fartface
03-09-2013, 06:53 PM
Alright sounds good we'll see you at 3est/7gmt bbq.

darknietzsche
03-10-2013, 01:08 AM
Final: planepark, lost city, ice, funnelpark, core, grotto, snow

If Needed: asteroids, labyrinth, maze, cave, cross, grotto, mayhem 2

Winters Ark
03-10-2013, 06:51 PM
http://www.twitch.tv/arkhanno

Going to be streaming the finals for those that can't get in or miss the games.

Winters Ark
03-10-2013, 09:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLoCtD32Tlw

For those that missed the games. I kinda did a few things on the fly in this one. Next Finals that I stream/record will be done a lot better because of what I learned doing this one.

TwistedCookie
03-10-2013, 09:29 PM
can't hear the 3v and ddp after your mumble crashed .. :S

Duck Duck Pwn
03-10-2013, 09:34 PM
I think VAN1SH1NG recorded the audio, maybe someone could patch that on top of ark's video

VAN1SH1NG
03-10-2013, 09:44 PM
I think VAN1SH1NG recorded the audio, maybe someone could patch that on top of ark's video

I have:
Full Mumble recording
720p 60fps Fraps video of each match, ball cam capture mode 1
720p 30fps Fraps video of the team/stats screen for each match

Disappointed that the chat sounds are in the background, but not a big deal. I will try to silence them if I record in the future. Also forgot to turn off recording of mouse in the first game vid so you'll see me move the cursor occasionally so I wouldn't get kicked due to inactivity. Otherwise I think everything worked out fine.

Winters Ark
03-10-2013, 09:47 PM
So something I didn't know: when I muted my mic it muted all audio that was being recorded through XSplit. I didn't know that Astros had that problem. :/ Sorry guys. If Vanishing has the audio for all the commentary then I can edit that in and throw up a new video sometime tonight or tomorrow. Doesn't matter if it's just audio or audio/video. Right now I have work to do for TSSB but once that's done I can work on the new SL Finals video.

TwistedCookie
03-10-2013, 09:51 PM
Cool stuff guys,thanks for doing it :)
Yo vanish,please upload it asap can't wait to hear those 2 comentating

darknietzsche
03-13-2013, 03:05 PM
If Vlix and t3c could send me their vapor IDs for their teams, I will try to get the CP awarded to them.

Aki1024
03-19-2013, 08:25 PM
3v and DN put better reasons to keep things as they are then I stated.